Well, I'm still kind of new around here, but I'm just responding to what I seem to see on the surface, a person who is still fairly young and is formulating her views on this issue, views that are still in something of a flux and subject to change. I hope that is the case. I am something of the eternal optimist, in spite of the condition the world is in that would lead some Christians to think otherwise. I do always have hope though. I once was blind but now I see, but my sight wasn't instantaneous; it took time and I hope that's what I'm seeing in her case. I may be wrong but I hope I'm not.

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per-son
Show Spelled Pronunciation [pur-suhn]
- noun
1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

http://www.demaristransportation.com

http://www.saltyfaith.com

Then almost NO one on this forum is pro-life. Because almost every single person here would let the mother abort to save her life. That's no the definition of pro-life I'd ever heard and it is not a definition I accept. I reject your logic as faulty.


I don't feel it has anything to do with that. Rape should actually be under Maternal Health.


They do.


I will not EVER approve of forcing the mother do die. NEVER. This is non-negotiable.


No they aren't. I can think of many situations where if the parent saved themselves instead of the child no one would even be disturbed. Secondly, the baby only came into existence because it has been supported completely by the woman's body. She has a right to live just as strong - in fact stronger IMO - than the unborn child does. The woman's life comes first.


Let's not, since nothing you can say will change my mind.


I don't think there is a "right choice" in that situation. You could actually say that the mother SAVED the lives of her future children, still just eggs. Also, what if the mother was single and had a special needs child at home? You never know. If the mother made that decision to save herself, you can bet she'd have a reason. You cannot judge that situation or say there is a "right" or "wrong" answer, because there is not.


Yep. So?


Liberal Christian, actually. Which is quite different.


That would be his choice. What? God would have found someone else. I was told once that if Mary had said no, God would have found someone else. Jesus had the choice; he was man and God combined but he still has his free will. I wouldn't blame the man for saying "uh you know what? no." There would have been another Jesus. For all you know, there WERE other failed messiahs to whom God spoke, and who chickened out at the last minute.

Sure it's all nice to say "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" but as Star Trek teaches us, sometimes, saving that ONE person can be just as meaningful as saving hundreds.


I don't recall "self preservation" being a sin. We all get scared.


Um, that's nice and all... don't see how that relates to abortion though.


Not everyone is christian and I am not going to force such morals upon them. They have the choice to come to god under their own power. And I know that if it was me pregnant, I would abort to save my own life if the only other option was death. I'd try everything else under the sun before resorting to that, but I would do it. I do not live just for myself. I live for my loved ones too; and voluntarily taking myself away from them just to birth a child is SUICIDE. Suicide is a sin; wanting to live is not.

Then almost no one on here is pro-life. I disagree with your logic and find it to be extremely faulty. Wishing death upon the mother is anti-life.

IT has always been the mainstream position of the prolife movement that abortion is acceptable to save the life of the mother.
That was legal before Roe was ever passed.

Only extremist think that women should be forced to die to give birth.

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Carolemarie,
God is Great all the time!

sorry dude, you do come across as a woman hater when you state you would go against your wives wish and let her die to birth a baby.
That is a anti woman statement and shows that the baby is all that matters to you, if I was her, I would appoint someone else with my power of attorney for health care...
Newsflash!
Women are not breeding stock, our lives are just as valuable as the baby.

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Carolemarie,
God is Great all the time!

That's what I've been saying this whole time! But some naysayers seem to think that the people don't matter, their hearts don't matter. Yoda in fact says that he doesn't care about converting anyone to pro-life at all. I can't comprehend how he expects to enforce or even PASS a law that the majority doesn't want.


Thanks, that's how I feel. My transition really has taken more than a year; back last summer I started questioning the absolutist views of pro-choice and started voicing my opinion that elective late term abortion is wrong. I really started questioning everything in about April, and by May or June I was on here. This summer has been one of transition for me, though I definitely do not consider myself a Moderate anymore. I feel, according to all (sane) definitions I have encountered online and in real life, that I am completely pro-life.


Pretty ineffective actually. It's actually what got me so offended about pro-choice thought and made me ally with some pro-lifers on another board. I wasn't pro-life at the time, but I was really angry at how they were being treated. This bad treatment is also what has made me put several people on this forum on ignore. It's too bad because one of them has said very thoughtful things and has helped me on rare occasions, but the overwhelming hate I get from them is just too much to take.



People on here will disagree with you, though I can't really understand why.

What's holding me back is my respect for the woman. I will never, ever EVER force her to die. Never. Forcing her to die is murder in my book. Me choosing to die is suicide. I do not condone either of those things. I do "fess up", I've been calling myself pro-life for months. The reason the mother should have the choice in cases of maternal danger is because she is here first, her body is the one being "used", and so her rights come first. Every effort should be made to save both but if it is the bottom line, baby or mom, I say mom.

Lol, my family is fine! My grandma probably won't make it to Christmas, but it's not a surprise and she's doing ok right now.

Oh no Carol, you're not really pro-life!!

You sick minded, murdering, sexist pig. You would let her die against her wishes, that makes it murder through inaction. Allowing another human to die through your own actions or by refusing to provide aid is murder. You are anti-life, you are pro-murder. But only of females.


But not out of love for your wife.


Would you take on the responsibilities of being a murderer?


Can't do that when you're in jail for murder.


Sick.


Has he talked to you personally and said "Bgraphics, murder your wife through inaction and against her will so that the child will live but all of your future children will also die? You'd have one living baby, four never-existing children and a dead wife. Pretty anti-life to me!


That's like not rescuing a drowning person. You're not killing them, you're just "letting them die"!! Murder.

It's ridiculously rare actually, which is why I can't understand why it's such a big deal!



I think that's what happens in most situations.

So I have been told....

Funny how men are willing to let the mothers of their children die....I find a man who loved me and wasn't willing to let me die....

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Carolemarie,
God is Great all the time!

You don't know me at all; you didn't even have a clue I existed until I joined the forums. And you're lying, since I have changed quite a bit. I was completely for all elective abortions when I first got here, and now I am completely against all elective abortions. How is that not a drastic change? You just want to hate on me, that's all this is.

I work at a school called Bayshore Elementary. I am employed as a paraprofessional working in pre-kindergarten Exceptional Student Education (ESE), that is students with special needs such as severe autism, emotional and behavioral disturbances, physical disabilities, other mental disabilities, etc. The kids are wonderful. It's great because my mom works in the room next door with a normal 3rd grade class. She helped me get the job. The school has an all-inclusion program, where all ESE students in 1-5th grade are included in regular classrooms. My students are too young yet.

I've only actually been in a Planned Parenthood once in my life, and that was for my very first pap-smear and birth control prescription. The speculum was heated, which was nice! The lady was funny and helped me relax. All of my other pap smears have been on a campus or in private clinics.

I have never worked for a "pro-choice group", and I wouldn't even know what that would entail. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Nancyu has no idea who I am, don't fall for her lies. The experiences I have shared on here have been things you can't just make up and even have a hope of keeping straight. If I were lying, I would have made a mistake and been outed as a liar long before now.

You're not wrong. The world needs more people like you.

There seem to be an awful lot of extremists on here.

Yeah, I think someone needs to inform his wife that he will murder her to save the baby.

It is, isn't it!?

It isn't a prolife statement. Because if you are prolife you are supose to care about all life,not just babies that are unborn.

I think his attitude is what keeps abortion legal-- a total disregard for women except as breeding machines....

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Carolemarie,
God is Great all the time!

I dont wish death upon the mother. Every effort should be made to safe mom and baby. There is no reason in this day and time it cant be. I find your logic to be extremely faulty. To say that babies not conceived by rape are more worthy of life than those that are is faulty. I never said that a woman should have to die. I said that every medical effort to save both must be done. Im not choosing one over the other. All human beings are worthy of life from the baby concieved in rape to the convicted murderer setting on death row. Im also against the death penalty because I realized I could not truly call myself prolife without being against all forms of killing. Abortion. Captial Punishment, Assisited Suicide . I am against all of them because only God can take life. To say that certain babies are worthy of life or that only the women are worthy is playing God and I dont do that. I never said once that the mom should be sacrificed to save a baby except when pertaining to my own personal self. My husband knows my wishes on the matter. Every effort possible will be done to save both, but if it comes down to me or the baby. He knows he betters save the baby.

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" If abortion is merely about women's rights then what were mine? There wasn't a radical feminist yelling about how my rights were being violated on that day."<BR><BR>Gianna Jessen, abortion survivor

Edited: 09/19/2008 at 07:19 PM by scopia1982

If you would refuse her an abortion to save her life then you are.


I am not denying that.


Hey, like I said, these cases are so rare that they almost never happen HOWEVER if one case did come up, the mother's life comes first.


And I find YOURS to be faulty!!! >


I am NOT saying that, so you're off base. Rape falls under maternal danger. Stop thinking about it as rape. If a woman happens to have been raped, and if it is determined that abortion could be beneficial for her, then she should have the right to do it. Rape pregnancies are extremely rare anyway, and the likelyhood of her ALSO having debilitating depression caused by the pregnancy is even more unlikely. HOWEVER, if the situation were to arise, I feel she should have the choice. She can still say NO, but the choice should be available.


If you would deny her a life-saving procedure you ARE saying you want her to die.


I have never denied that fact and agree. But if all efforts have been exhaused and the ONLY way to save her life is to abort, then she should have that choice. She can say NO, but the choice should be available.


Yes you are. If it came down to mom vs the baby, you would save the baby.


Well at least you're consistent on that end. But don't just be against the death penalty because you feel it contradicts being pro-life. Be anti-death penalty because you actually BELIEVE it. I said a lot of things as a pro-choicer because I was told I "should" feel that way, but in the end I was just lying to myself. So if you don't actually believe people on death row deserve life, then admit that!

Yeah, I agree.