There have been very few prochoicers here who base their view on the 'blob' theory. Most of us are well educated on fetal development and some even have or are planning to have children. For us, fetal development has nothing to do with women deciding when or whether to gestate and that takes precedence over your value of the fetus.

I've been reading and reading these boards and the pro-choice "logic" really fascinates me.

A little bit of my own history: I was an abused child, survived a rape, and later (not from the rape) a crisis pregnancy. I am unwaveringly pro-life. I am not pro-life for religious reasons. I am also not politically conservative.

With my history, you would think I'd be all about "choice"--and to be honest, I was on the fence for some time, until I did a little research of my own. It started in my biology class in college and went on from there. After talking to everyone on both sides, and researching everything I could about this issue (trying to keep an open mind), I found that the pro-choice view is a flimsy one. It's obviously the "sexier" view in this issue, and it's popular. But it is so anti-feminist, I'm surprised that the pro-choice feminists haven't caught on. My liberty isn't tied to my ability to rip life from my body. (The "choice" camp confuses the ability to do something with "the right" to do something.)

My liberty is tied to making responsible choices and living not for myself but for others. It isn't enough to say "I'm against abortion for myself, but I can't make that decision for anyone else." We have to see the TRUTH about what abortion is, and find out why women have abortions, and then isolate those causes and fix them. I've never seen any pro-choice woman worry about actually helping women not have to abort. It's not about "choice," it's about abortion, and that's why I call them "pro-abortion." They don't like that. If they say "Well, I'm not for ABORTION, nobody is, I'm for CHOICE" then I have to wonder, choice to do what? Why are you using the word "choice" as a euphemism for abortion? If you think abortion should be an option, then, yes, you are "pro-abortion."

("Anti-choice" always kind of makes me laugh. Like pro-lifers are against ALL CHOICES. "Anti-abortion" isn't totally accurate, but is a little better than "anti-choice.")

So, yes, as someone who was on the fence and eventually became pro-life.....I haven't seen many pro-lifers become pro-choice. In the rare occasion they do, it is usually because 1) pro-lifers are painted as a nerdy, unsexy bunch.....2) they have not actually witnessed an abortion....and 3) they have had an abortion themselves and need to justify it.

I do not condemn women who have had abortions. I know what it's like to consider one. I am critical of those in the pro-abortion camp who refuse to tell the truth, and even belittle the millions of women who have been hurt by abortion.

Edited: 11/22/2009 at 07:58 PM by franny

I'm sure it initially started out as, "Well, my mom says this is right so it must be," but as I grew older I really came to believe wholeheartedly that abortion was murder and that 4,000 babies were being murdered everyday. I don't believe that I ever felt anger or hatred towards women who had abortions, but more of a sadness over all the babies being lost.
Of my own volition, I wrote letters requesting information from pro-life organizations (around 50 or so and I'm not even exaggerating) and I carefully filed away each piece of mail I received in the filing cabinet drawer of my desk (I can't for the life of me remember how the filing system was organized; I wish I could). I wrote a pro-life poem, which I also wish I could remember.
When I found out that a family member had had two abortions, I did a little ritual of lighting two candles at night for the family members I had lost and would never know or meet. When another family member had impregnated his teenage girlfriend (he was a teenager, at the time too, in case you were wondering), I wrote her a letter, which I presented to her after she gave birth, expressing how proud I was of her and how brave I thought she was for choosing to have the baby and how happy and relieved I was that she hadn't chosen abortion.
In school, I would jump at the chance to present the pro-life viewpoint whenever we were told to come up with a topic to debate - either through presentation to the class or in essay form. I specifically remember making this visual aid where there were two happy, chubby babies and next to them was an outline of where a baby should be. I think the accompanying quote to that graphic was something along the lines of "1 in 3 babies are aborted."
I also remember participating in a "Life Chain" (I believe that's what it was called; not sure if those occur any longer) where a large number of people came together on the sidewalk facing a busy highway and interlocked their arms.


No, I don't have any conflicts, even with my knowledge of fetal development. Even after seeing a sonogram in person, living with a pregnant woman through her entire pregnancy, going to appointments with her, routinely touching her belly to feel the baby moving inside, and being present at the birth of the baby at which point I burst out crying with tears of joy and absolute amazement.
As mushy as it sounds, that experience - of seeing a baby being born - was (and still is) one of the most wonderful and amazing and significant moments of my life to date. To watch a pregnancy progress, to see a woman's belly grow as the fetus inside her grows (to see limbs and rear-ends literally protrude - a little weird, but SO very cool), and then all of a sudden (well, not all of a sudden technically, what with the hours and hours of labor) to see him come into the world, to be there the very moment that a person's life begins - there's nothing else like it. Nothing.
Also, contrary to what I've been told by a select few on this very forum, I absolutely adore babies. I think they're amazing, wonderful, beautiful creatures. Another fond memory I have is one of babysitting one of my nephews when he was around 3 or so months old. I sat down in a rocking chair with his head propped up against my shoulder and was so content to sit there and rock him while rubbing his back feeling his tiny chest breathing in and out, in and out. Listening to his little coos as he dreamed. Snuggling my cheek up right next to his and feeling his warmth and softness. There's nothing like that either. It was pure bliss and love.
Okay. I think I've hit and exceeded my mushy quota of the day. This is probably more than you ever wanted to know and more than I have ever written in a post here. Sorry for the literary overload. I won't feel slighted if you end up just skimming this wall o' text.
In conclusion, after having said all that, after having experienced all of the above, I am still steadfastly secure in my pro-choice beliefs.
Oh, and any pro-choicer who refers to an embryo or fetus as "a blob" is being obtuse and disingenuous. An embryo or fetus is obviously much more complex than a blob of goo or tissue. Although, it does kind of have blob-ish qualities up until about the eighth week or so of gestation.


I bet you're sorry you ever asked now, huh?

-------------------------
Until every woman, everywhere is able to easily access safe, legal, private, affordable abortions, for whatever reason, at any time, on demand, without interference from outside parties and most importantly - without apology or shame.

You get no debate from me.

However, I don't choose my opinions based on the other people that support them, that sort of logic for choosing your "camp" is just moronic, and based on a need to feel popular or "intelligent" not on supporting what is right.

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

So, even though you are impressed with the wonder of foetal development et al, and you acknowledge that you know there is a life in there, you still support a woman's right to put an end to that amazing life process that amazes you such?

To phrase it in another way, you have a sig that asks for full access to abortion at any stage for any reason, so you basically saying you support an abortion of that foetus when its limbs are pressing against the side of it's mother's belly, and for any reason the mother decides?

I find that perplexing.



Nope.

I figured I'd get a long answer, I would have been a bit miffed if I got a "I'm pro-choice just cos, meh!! "

As I've said before, I find the whole progression of anyone from any view to another to be a highly fascinating event, both as a way of cognitive function and development or progression of one's opinion.

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

I'll be honest with you though, I"ve met quite a few people who have said to me they would never be Pro-Life because they dont' want to be lumped in with the same group of people that sits on its hands and kinda denounces people who snipe on doctors and then start thumping a bible.

That mindset really rips the crotch right out of my undies, that people will refuse to acknowledge their internal pro-life leanings, because really, if all the rational people I know who aren't in public pro-life became pro-life then we'd eventually push the lunatic fringe with the megaphones out.

Then we could get down to the real business at hand, helping women and saving children, not screaming bloody murder or *****y whore at the women we're trying to assist.

edit: WHy the hell is skanky censored and whore isn't?

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

Edited: 11/22/2009 at 11:01 PM by Shenanigans

I don't know why Franny as a pro-life feminism thinks abortion is wrong.

But as a Pro-Life feminist myself I'll be happy to throw out my ranty two cents.

1. Abortion is a tool of the patriarch. It subjugates women. It tells women when, where and under what circumstances they can or cannot be pregnant.

How so?

A woman in a high powered job gets pregnant, she is told, or discreetly discouraged from progression in her career path because of this pregnancy.

A 16 year old girl in secondary school. She is told she can't continue her education. That her life is over. That there's no way she can afford a child. That she can have more children, later in life when she is more stable. She is put on a guilt trip by her parents who lament the embarrassment it will bring them.

A 22 year old university student. She has poor access to child support facilities. She is in an environment where the liberal, pro-choice mindset is in full swing. She is told she can't continue her studies, a pregnancy and child will interfer with her classes and exams and et cetera.

A 30 year old single mum. She is told she already has children, that she will have a hard time getting extra time off work, or support for her born child/ren. She will be stretched financially.

A 28 year old woman on the dole. She is told she will be a burden to the welfare system, that she will raise her child in terrible poverty and that child will have a high chance of being a criminal or falling into the trap of early parenthood.

A 42 year old woman with teenaged children falls pregnant. She is told that she will be embarrasing her teenagers, that she is too old for a pregnancy, that she has a higher risk of Downs Syndrome or some other defect. That she should be saving for retirement not getting ready to do the whole parenting thing all over again.

And so on and so fourth.

Abortion is the male dominated society's way of controlling women. It tells women when and where and how they can be pregnant.

Women shouldn't have to accept this BS! We should flip them off and DEMAND better assistance for our pregnant sisters. THe woman in the high powered job, her career shouldn't be jepordised by a pregnancy, she shouldn't be relegated to the mail room or as a glorified secretary while her male counterparts get promoted above her and her swollen uterus. The teenager should be given all the assisttance necessary, there's no reason why she can't continue her education and be a mum at the same time. The single mother, the older mother, the unemployed mother, why should these women be expected by a passive agressive pro-abortion society to abort their pregnancies? They need assistance, not abortions.

2. Women have been conned into thinking that the ideal in this world is to be unburdened by pregnancy and children.

Taking into account my above rail in 1. we must consider and again demand a change in the mindset.

Someone once said that women will never acheive equality climbing over the bodies of their dead children!

Men can go out and spill their seed as they desire and they are labelled a stud. They have no shame in being known as a "man whore", whereas a woman who does the same is considered a slut or a skank. When a woman is pregnant and not married, it is proof to society of her less then flavourable moral character. This is both hypocritical and anti-woman. Women should not be judged as whores because they are pregnant when men can shagg all the strumpets they please and not be socially penalised.

Therefore, society, the male dominated society, has the covert message that women are better off getting an abortion as this hides her "shame", and the world seeing a non-pregnant young women will think she is a "good girl".

3. Women and Men are different. This is not bad.

You'd have to be a lobotomised ape to think that men and women are physically the same. We are emotionally and physically different. That does not make us less equal. It makes us different.

A woman gets pregnant. Its what she is designed to do. Taking into account number 1. & 2. the MALE dominated society has told women that pregnancy is bad, that being a woman is bad, and to participate in society you must be a man, or like a man, and that is sexually active yet with no consquences, and a consquence of sex is pregnancy, therefore, the MALE dominated society teaches women that if you want any respect you must be not pregnant.

Now, this is not to say that the only value a woman has is found in pregnancy, that is simply not true which leads to -

4. If you are Pro-Life you are anti-woman because you claim a woman's only role is pregnancy.

This is BS. To be Pro-Life is not to be anti-woman. It is to be pro-woman! To be truly Pro-Life you must support the woman because honest to goodness it is so damn logical, if you are anti-woman who is with foetus, what do you think is going to happen to the foetus? To save the foetus you must save the woman!

Women can offer so much more then a uterus. However, when pregnancy results, the male dominated society will jump all over her damanding an abortion in exchange for her participation in said society.

Women get pregnant, its why the have a uterus. If a women gets pregnant, then she must be a woman and take responsibilty for her action and the MAN must take responsibilty as well!

5. Men can just walk away.

This adds to the lack of support a pregnant woman has. A man has really no reason to stick around if he doesn't want to. All he has to do is say "You're full of crap, I'm not the dad" and off he goes. And unless the woman kicks up a stink and demands a DNA test, then the guy gets off scott free.

This is anti-woman! It also pushes the woman into a state of despair and the vultures at the abortion mills will pick up on this and convince her that an abortion is the best thing for it, since she can't possibly afford to have a child!

Which is a point I've mentioned above - society has tricked women into beleiving they are completely worthless without a man!

6. Our foremothers of the feminist movement were Pro-Life. Go check out Feminists For Life if you don't beleive me. It wasn't until the late 60s and 70s that some idiot in the feminist movement thought abortion was a good idea.

Abortion is anti-woman! Any feminist worth her salt should be disgusted.

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God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

Human life has more value then a lamb.

Human life has more value then a strawberry.

Why?

Because it is human life. That's why.

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

I'd counter with "why isn't human life more important?" but the owness is on me to prove my point since I brought it up first, but feel free to state why you think human life isn't more important.

Human life has value that is recognised by the law. If human life didn't have value then why is murder illegal? Why is rape? Why is assault? One could argue that these things are illegal because they are based on preventing disharmony within a societial grouping. But, if human life has no value, why bother with societial harmony? They are illegal because they harm another human being, and why is harming another human being bad? Because that human being has value.

Which then rolls onto, again, why does human life have value:

This can be addressed in several ways, you can build your opinion on the value of human life as mentioned above from a legal perspective. Or, you can extend that to include the wealth humans bring to society.

I'm not speaking of wealth in a monetary or materialistic view, but rather, in an abstract kind of way. Each human in their own way, regardless of mental or physical ability, will each gift society with their own take on wealth. Stephen Hawking, Enstein, some would claim Obama they have given humanity something we cannot buy. But then what of those like Hitler? What could scum like that possibly give us? Well, he started the greatest war we've ever seen, so perhaps one could argue from that debacle came great scientific and medical advances, along with the United Nations, (which I guess at one time actually had some value in of itself).

Of course, with Hitler, one could say that amongst the 6 million + he had killed were individuals who could have given humanity the same advances et cetera. But we cannot focuss on the "what ifs" as that line of thought will end no where except confusion and a brain fart.

Even our murderers, despite their horrible mindsets give something to humanity - we have a nasty, rather self-defeatist habit of finding strength and coming together when we are faced with something awful. A murderer kills someone, well, society tends to come together both from a) a point of assisting the fmaily of the victim and b) revenge/justice (a rather negative aspect).

However, it is from such negatives that humans can develop positives.

So where does that leave us?

Human life is given value in the law, either from an intention to prevent disorder, or an intention to protect.

Everyone, regardless of ability can give something to society that is unqiue and valuable.

Human life can offer both negative and positive attributes.

Then we enter into the realm of possibility, this is not to be confused with considering the "what ifs" as "what ifs" tend to focus on a possible event that could have happened in place of the one that did. Whereas possibility in this context is rather "what will happen?" for example, what will happen if Obama wins?

Every human life will have an impact on society, either at a small, familial level or at the largest, global level.

Now, some have argued that the child in the womb facing abortion could grow up to be the next Enstein or Obama, but with that said, the child could also grow up to be the next Hitler.

We should not focus on comparisons to other humans either living or dead, but rather, focus on the child as an unqiue individual. And whatever impact they have on society, it will be an impact none the less.

How this mirror the purpose of value?

Well, the child with Downs Syndrome, these people can quite happily funciton in society, and often with a cheerful disposition can teach those around them that life is for living and that their life is just as valuable as any able bodied person.

The gifted child, well, he could grow up to cure cancer.

Every human life can impact society.

A sheep cannot.

A sheep isn't going to cure cancer.

A strawberry isn't going to impress those around it with its happy disposition.

A clam won't grow up, and through human experience touch the lives of those around them.

Even if the foetus in the womb grows up to be a plumber and have a family, they are still making an impact.

Even if the foetus in the womb grows up to be a homicidal maniac, they teach us mercy towards criminals and perhaps will teach us a few things about the progression of person to murderer and their mental illness. This is an impact.

Even right now, everyone on this board is making some form of an impact.

You in your life are making, what I would imagine, is a significant impact given the troubles you post about.

Human life has value because it makes an impact for the negative or positive value of human society.

A sheep cannot.

A strawberry cannot.

A clam cannot.

That is why human life has more value then a sheep.

That is not to say we should all go out and kill us a bunch of sheep, as their lives have value in the same way a hammer or a car have value. But then, another point, that hammer and that car, they only have value if they are utlised by a human.

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

you are absolutely right! abortion will save the planet!
you disgust me.

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"Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Edited: 11/23/2009 at 02:58 AM by sk1bianca

So, when are you going to do your part? You're here, you're using rescources, where should be not send flowers?

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A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. - Edward R. Murrow

The first liberal was satan.

Vexator, I didn't see your post! So to answer:

To say abortion is ANTI-FEMINIST seems, on the outset, to be a paradox. The pro-choice camp believes women should have control over their bodies, and their lives, and their destinies. Fair enough. While I understand their argument, their logic is flawed for several reasons. For one thing, it is not the "right to abortion" that is the linchpin to women's liberty. It is, in fact, the one thing that is keeping us from progressing as a society.

The one thing we can do that men cannot do is carry a child. To have a baby is not a RIGHT--it is a privilege. It is quite miraculous and very beautiful. It is one thing men will never, ever be able to do. Instead of viewing pregnancy and bearing children as an assessment of control, we should have honor and respect for this ability. Abortion is an unnatural, destructive act. It teaches women to destroy a life--the life of their own child--in order to get what they want. We call this act "choice," but what it really does is perpetuate violence. For those women who have abortion because they feel they have no way out, it is an act of violence and of desperation. For those women who think it's no big deal, it is an act of violence and selfishness.

Feminists should know better. Women have been degraded and humiliated throughout history. Abortion is further humiliation and degradation. Pro-choice feminists tout abortion as the only thing that keeps women from being enslaved; but they have it backwards. We are still enslaved. Abortion doesn't prevent women from being enslaved--education does. Education is the key to our freedom.

Feminists believe "equality" means "not having to bear children when you don't want to." That's fine, as far as preventative birth control goes (I am pro-life, but also a huge supporter of birth control), but abortion takes the life of another human being who has no choice, whose value is contingent on whether or not his or her mother "chooses" to ALLOW them to live. Instead of the instinct to nurture and protect the child we have conceived, we view that child as the enemy, and not only accept his or her killing, but we CELEBRATE it. Instead of women demanding that we not be penalized for being pregnant--at work, at university, etc.--we are ripping our children from our wombs in order to play a man's game. And within the last fifteen years there has been an upswing in violence towards pregnant women, because men have been demanding their girlfriends/wives have an abortion, because it means he would not have to be responsible for it. Women should be demanding true equality, and once we understand that our rights are LINKED to our unborn children--not OPPOSED to our unborn children, then we will start to see peace in the world.

Abortion is not a semantic right. It is not a victimless right. It is the only so-called "medical" procedure which purposefully ends the life of another. There have been millions of women hurt by abortion, but the pro-choice camp not only ignores their cries, and ignores the truth, they berate and chide these women who have been lied to, who have realized the gruesome truth of this procedure. How is that feminist? They belittle anyone who dares to question this so-called "right" and keep their reasons to mere slogans and excuses. This is also scientifically and intellectually dishonest. How is that feminist?

So yes. Abortion is anti-feminist, any way you look at it.

Edited: 11/23/2009 at 01:43 PM by franny

You seem reasonable enough to acknowledge that there are millions of women who don't regret their abortions and if you look solely at anecdotal evidence of such regret over the last 37 years (not that abortion has only been occurring that long), the sheer numbers of abortions without remorse are overwhelming. Possible regret is not a reason to prohibit anything.

On a related note, your assessment of pregnancy and childbirth as beautiful, amazing and empowering is completely subjective. There are many women who absolutely do not feel that way no matter how people try to romanticize it and they should not be penalized for someone's mere opinion.

Awww, did Vex get kicked again? I kinda like her.

As for her comments, whether or not she has the ability to read this.

Yes, humans have the capacity and the audacity to screw the planet over, but we also have the ability to save it. That's what is the difference between us and a sheep. (That and we probably taste like crap).

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

Well, it's not actually subjective. National Geographic just launched a series about animals in the womb. Clearly unborn ANYTHING is fascinating and astounding as a biological fact. As a pro-lifer who supports birth control, I would hope that unplanned pregnancy can be reduced with education and proper use of birth control.

My pro-choice friends who become pregnant are VERY into the whole "miracle of childbirth" thing, even more than I am. When I was carrying my baby, my pro-choice pal (someone I love dearly), put her hands on my belly and said, "Women are AMAZING." It made me wonder. My other pro-choice friend put pictures of her unborn son on her refrigerator and loved talking about her experience. It's not only pro-lifers who think pregnancy is amazing.

But your logic is flimsy. To say that some women don't feel empowered by their pregnancies is to fling the same strawman rhetoric that's used by the pro-choice camp. We need to find out WHY some women seek abortions, and isolate those causes. Do they seek abortions because they hate children? No. Do they seek abortions because they think having a baby will ruin their lives? Yes. We need to protect women and offer them help and support so they don't feel they HAVE to have an abortion. Abortions aren't preventative--they are destructive. And to say it's okay to have an abortion because you're just "not ready" or "it's your body" (when clearly, it is not only the woman's body which is involved) is to turn a blind eye to the truth. If we removed the stigma of pregnancy, stopped viewing it as a disease, stopped turning the unborn children into villains/parasites/the enemy, then maybe more women would feel brave enough to bring their children into the world instead of having them dismembered and put into the incinerator.

The first thing a woman feels after abortion is relief. But in many cases, regret and remorse doesn't hit the woman until years later. And there are more women who regret their abortions--at the very least, feel remorse and ashamed, than there are who rejoice in their abortions. It's not like 5,000 women regret their abortions out of 2,000,000. The numbers are higher than that. The Alan Guttmacher Institute has shown time and time again that they falsify their figures and ignore the truth. I've known a few brave women who had abortions, said they were pro-choice, justified their abortions for years, until they allowed themselves to LOOK at the truth of what they did. It's really fear that keeps anyone from really looking at this. And pro-choice "logic" is really just smoke and mirrors.

Many women are afraid to speak up because they feel betrayed by the pro-choice community and do not want to be associated with the pro-life community. It's a serious, serious issue, and it would behoove the pro-choice community to stop undermining women who have been enormously hurt by this so-called "right."

When I found out I was pregnant, I had nothing. No money. No family. I was about to embark on my career in the arts, and surely a baby would keep me from realizing my "destiny." But it wasn't the pro-choice women I knew who supported me (they thought I should abort)....it was the pro-life community who gave me what I needed to have my child. And though I had to put my plans on hold, I am back doing what I love--AND I have a child who throws her arms around my neck and says "I love you." It's not worth "controlling" your "destiny" if it is at the expense of another human being. When she was only six weeks along, I not only heard her little heart on the ultrasound, but SAW it, flickering like a light. She did not deserve to die because I wanted an escape. And, no, it was not my "choice" to keep her. It was my duty to protect her. She was not my "choice." She was my child. I was already her mother.

Edited: 11/23/2009 at 04:16 PM by franny

Then we need to wonder why they have no regret? Is it because they have accepted society's view that abortion is morally acceptable, or do they have a defect in their emotional structure?



You're right.

The reason for prohibiting abortion should be based not on regrets or any of the studies Pro-Lifers come up with for how cruddy it is, but its prohibition should be based on the fact that abortion is morally void and it kills another human being.

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

I still maintain the numbers are higher than reported. I can't tell you how many women *I* know that have said they regret it, feel it's awful, but don't want to be viewed as part of the pro-life community. They believe to speak out against it would be to speak out against women's rights, even though they question it and have even tried to demand answers from pro-choice groups. It's brainwashing.

I think a huge problem is that the pro-life community continues to perpetuate stereotypes. We need less pro-life men speaking, more pro-life women. We need atheist pro-lifers to be allowed to speak, and the pro-life gay and lesbian community to speak. They are ignored by the Christian Right because....because why? They're not like us? I would think that Jesus would want them to speak. If we showed more unity, and if the media decided to play fair, we might gain more ground, and it wouldn't be such a stigma to say you're pro-life.

Edited: 11/23/2009 at 04:35 PM by franny

Nice!

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All unborn children are persons
Abortion is NOT legal
Read the Constitution
Defend the Child

Exactly!

I mean, you look at the pro-abortion community, see how they embrace pro-abortion "Christians" and "Catholics", they're a trophy to them.

But us, we need to get over ourselves, society will say "Only Christian fundies are anti-choice et cetera et cetera, its based on a religious view this anti-choice thing", but if we get our lesbian, homosexual, Wiccan, atheist pro-life collegues to speak out the abortion minded loose in their sterotype of the bible thumping "anti-choicer".

Its in our best interest to welcome these people more fully into our ranks.

I have gay and lesbian pro-life friends and they feel as if they have no where to voice their opinions. They're not welcome in their liberal camp and they're less welcome in the Christian Pro-Life camp.

Pro-Life is supposed to be about saving the lives of children and theri mothers, not seeing who we can exclude based on what they get up to in their bedrooms.

-------------------------
God is Love.

The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"

Hear, hear!

If you believe in Jesus, then what makes you think Jesus would ever, ever turn away anyone who would want to speak out against abortion? I don't think it would be an issue.

I love PLAGAL--they're smart and they do good work. Unfortunately, when they show up at rallies, they are shunned BY THE PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY. Nice message.

The pro-life Christian community has to learn that it's one thing to be against abortion....it's another to demand that everyone live as THEY think they should live. You can't say, "Don't have an abortion, it's wrong, but also, don't have sex and praise the Lord every day." That's not going to work. Nat Hentoff is a wonderful speaker and writer who has presented a lot of secular arguments against abortion. Kathryn Reed, Norah Vincent, Doris Gordon.....they're out there. But they're not celebrated by the community as much as they should be.

Edited: 11/23/2009 at 05:02 PM by franny