 03/06/2010 09:59 AM
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sweet Executive Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 08/08/2008
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How could some conclude that animals are equal to humans?
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"If men...hurt a woman WITH CHILD...he shall be surely punished...and he shall pay..."(Exodus 21:22)KJV God is Love.Jesus is Christ.Father forgive us and deliver us from evil. ivirgini.com for Purity!
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03/06/2010 10:25 AM
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rsg007 Executive Member
Posts: 393
Joined: 04/06/2008
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Perhaps because humans ARE animals.
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03/06/2010 11:02 AM
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LexIcon Executive Member
Posts: 865
Joined: 01/25/2010
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Among other arguments for human exceptionalism, Judeo-Christian oriented humans are animals who claim by way of allegedly divine revelation that they are made in the image and likeness of God (See: Humans in the Image of God) whereas non-human animals aren't, and that this is what makes humans entitled to special considerations that would not, as a rule, be extended to non-human animals.
For example, rabid dogs are usually killed, while rabid humans aren't because their lives are more highly valued than the lives of dogs, in large measure because of this culture's foundational Judeo-Christian legal ethic, which is not to say that non Judeo-Christian cultures don't also have their own foundational human exceptionalist, or "speciesist" legal construct that accords more rights to humans than to non-human animals; that they do. (See: Speciesism).
The problem is that ANY argument for human exceptionalism that involves an appeal to divine authority simply won't cut it in a secular court, while the so-called "atheist" argument against human exceptionalism can become a utilitarian nightmare for those whose lives are deemed "not worth living."
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03/06/2010 12:27 PM
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gotcha New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: 02/12/2010
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Originally posted by: rsg007
Perhaps because humans ARE animals.
AND are so good to eat too! I like my human steaks broiled until crispy. Yummy!
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03/06/2010 12:32 PM
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LexIcon Executive Member
Posts: 865
Joined: 01/25/2010
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Originally posted by: gotcha
Originally posted by: rsg007
Perhaps because humans ARE animals.
AND are so good to eat too! I like my human steaks broiled until crispy. Yummy!
You haven't lived until you've had human chittlins!
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03/06/2010 01:00 PM
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gotcha New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: 02/12/2010
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Originally posted by: LexIcon
Originally posted by: gotcha
Originally posted by: rsg007
Perhaps because humans ARE animals.
AND are so good to eat too! I like my human steaks broiled until crispy. Yummy!
You haven't lived until you've had human chittlins!
Ohhh, that sounds SOOO good! Recipe please!
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03/06/2010 01:49 PM
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LexIcon Executive Member
Posts: 865
Joined: 01/25/2010
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Originally posted by: gotcha
Originally posted by: LexIcon
Originally posted by: gotcha
Originally posted by: rsg007
Perhaps because humans ARE animals.
AND are so good to eat too! I like my human steaks broiled until crispy. Yummy!
You haven't lived until you've had human chittlins!
Ohhh, that sounds SOOO good! Recipe please!
Cook however you please. Steak sauce helps, or catsup, if you're cheap.
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03/06/2010 02:12 PM
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B0zo Senior Executive
Posts: 2085
Joined: 10/23/2009
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Originally posted by: sweet
How could some conclude that animals are equal to humans?
I don't get it either.
Most animals I've encountered are fun to be around.
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03/06/2010 04:56 PM
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Shenanigans VP
Posts: 3735
Joined: 02/05/2009
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Sentience.
That's what puts people above animals in the grand scheme of things.
While people can debate till their blue in the face over whether animals are "self aware" the reality is, most people just transferring or personifying human emotion and mind state into animals. Its cute, fun to do, but animals are not aware that they "are".
The other problem with "well, some animals are sentient, so meh", is that those people always have confused sentience with sapience.
Regardless, just because animals are not aware of themselves as a "self" does not justify unreasonable harm to them, like shoving fire crackers up a dog's arse for jollies. Humanely slaughtering, (if there is such a thing) a Cow for a steak is a different kettle of fish and part of the food chain.
Then of course, you get the silly pro-aborts who say since the foetus is not sentient its life is not worthy of consideration, but then the argument there is simply the foetus (human uterine entity) is human. Thus, its current sentience is not up for debate.
Animals will never be equal to humans in that regards.
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God is Love.
The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"
Edited: 03/06/2010 at 04:58 PM by Shenanigans
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03/06/2010 05:13 PM
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newfag Member
Posts: 76
Joined: 02/27/2010
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Nearly all (if not all) animals are sentient to some degree by adulthood. One might argue that humans possess a greater degree of sentience than other animals, but such assertions have been challenged relatively recently in our past, and are these challenges have by no means been resolved. There is a correlation between intelligence and higher degrees of sentience, and the notion that we are the most intelligent species has also come under fire. Some studies suggest that dolphins, chimps, or other "higher" forms of life may approach or even exceed our intelligence. We can only say for certain that it appears that few species are significantly near our level of intelligence as we measure human intelligence, but that may or may not mean they are not even more intelligent than we are in other ways more relevant to the niche they occupy in our ecosystems, ways that we do not necessarily deem significant as pertaining to human intelligence.
tl;dr
Humans are certainly not the only sentient species on this planet.
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03/06/2010 05:14 PM
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newfag Member
Posts: 76
Joined: 02/27/2010
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Originally posted by: Augustine
The unborn is still a person. They are a person because they are human. Immediate and continued sentience are not qualifying conditions for being human. I don't think that many people are very sentient when dragged out of bed at 3 am. I'm certain that most humans aren't sentient when they are three sheets to the wind. But they are still persons and still human. No matter how drunk a person gets they are not a cat. A man in a coma will never become a dog. No dog, even the brightest dog on his best day, will ever do algebra, write legislation, compose a symphony or find a cure for a disease.
Here we have the heart of the issue...
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03/06/2010 05:16 PM
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Shenanigans VP
Posts: 3735
Joined: 02/05/2009
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Originally posted by: Augustine
The unborn is still a person. They are a person because they are human. Immediate and continued sentience are not qualifying conditions for being human. I don't think that many people are very sentient when dragged out of bed at 3 am. I'm certain that most humans aren't sentient when they are three sheets to the wind. But they are still persons and still human. No matter how drunk a person gets they are not a cat. A man in a coma will never become a dog.
I didn't say that sentience is the pre-determining factor that makes a human a person or places them above animals, I was pointing out that sentience is what puts us above the animals. Being human is a given for such rights as personhood being granted to born and unborn, but sentience is part in parcel of being human, it is something we have evolved to be, the human embryo if left alone, and barring any defect of genetics will develop that sentience, the drunk is still sentient the half asleep person is still sentient in some capacity. For circumstances of sleep and coma sentience is moot, its not what determines humanity or rights, its what humans tend to have when awake and free of genetic or traumatic defect.
Barring some spectacular jump in the evolutionary process, a dog isn't going to stand up tomorrow and say "please don't give ME wet dog food, I find it morally detestable". In all evolutaionary likelihood the next animal to evolve sentience will appear long after we've gone out in a puff of radioactive smoke.
Basically, what I'm trying to say, and probably not doing a very good job of it, is sentience seperates us from the animals, but being human is what (should) guarantee us the rights we hold dear.
No dog, even the brightest dog on his best day, will ever do algebra, write legislation, compose a symphony or find a cure for a disease.
This is a dangerous argument, because most people can't do those things, I've seen statements like these lead to the devaluing of human life and classing some individuals as "non-persons" and demanding their removal from humanity.
Of course, there is a potential for all humans to do those things, but then "potential" is what the pro-aborts throw around a lot in their sub-standard ramblings.
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God is Love.
The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"
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03/06/2010 05:19 PM
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Spinwubby Senior Executive
Posts: 1085
Joined: 11/16/2009
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I can't agree.
I value the life of a seeing-eye dog more than the life of Osama bin Laden.
I'd risk my life to save a cat, but I wouldn't do the same for a sex offender.
Giant Panda or Vanilla Ice? You make the call...
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03/06/2010 05:19 PM
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Shenanigans VP
Posts: 3735
Joined: 02/05/2009
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Originally posted by: newfag
Nearly all (if not all) animals are sentient to some degree by adulthood. One might argue that humans possess a greater degree of sentience than other animals, but such assertions have been challenged relatively recently in our past, and are these challenges have by no means been resolved. There is a correlation between intelligence and higher degrees of sentience, and the notion that we are the most intelligent species has also come under fire. Some studies suggest that dolphins, chimps, or other "higher" forms of life may approach or even exceed our intelligence. We can only say for certain that it appears that few species are significantly near our level of intelligence as we measure human intelligence, but that may or may not mean they are not even more intelligent than we are in other ways more relevant to the niche they occupy in our ecosystems, ways that we do not necessarily deem significant as pertaining to human intelligence.
tl;dr
Humans are certainly not the only sentient species on this planet.
Do you have a dog, a cat, a rat? Any pet? Any animal?
Put an animal in front of a mirror, they don't think "hey, that's me" they try and sniff its arse, they respond to it like its another animal.
Sentience and intelligence are not the same thing, they go hand in hand with humans, but not a lot of animals. I had a dog that figured out how to get the door of her kennel off its hinges, but put her in front of a mirror she was barking, growling, and trying to find the reflection's arse to sniff.
People think there is some "evidence" to suggest that pigs and animals like dolphins are "sentience", again its the subtle confusion between intellience, sentience and sapience.
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God is Love.
The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"
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03/06/2010 05:22 PM
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Shenanigans VP
Posts: 3735
Joined: 02/05/2009
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Originally posted by: Spinwubby
Giant Panda or Vanilla Ice? You make the call...
I dunno, but Lord Almighty I'd pay to see giant panda vs. Vanilla Ice.
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God is Love.
The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"
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03/06/2010 05:23 PM
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LexIcon Executive Member
Posts: 865
Joined: 01/25/2010
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Originally posted by: Shenanigans
Then of course, you get the silly pro-aborts who say since the foetus is not sentient its life is not worthy of consideration, but then the argument there is simply the foetus (human uterine entity) is human. Thus, its current sentience is not up for debate.
For the Christian, the Incarnation -the word of God becoming a "human uterine entity"- should be sufficient as an argument as to why "the foetus" should be accorded maximum respect, sentience notwithstanding. That it is not accorded such respect by putative "CHRISTIANS" like Nancy Pelos and her ilk is the scandal of this age.
I honestly believe that the reason why God would choose to make such an entrance into human beingness was to provide an object lesson and a reproof to the practical atheists of our time who wear Christianity as a disguise for the evil that they prefer, which is abortion-on-demand.
"But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matthew 6:23
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03/06/2010 05:24 PM
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Spinwubby Senior Executive
Posts: 1085
Joined: 11/16/2009
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Originally posted by: Shenanigans
I dunno, but Lord Almighty I'd pay to see giant panda vs. Vanilla Ice.
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I just peed a little.
CAGE MATCH!
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03/06/2010 05:26 PM
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newfag Member
Posts: 76
Joined: 02/27/2010
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Animal Sentience
The basis of animal rights is the recognition that animals are sentient beings.
This means they are capable of being aware of sensations and emotions, of feeling pain and suffering, and of experiencing a state of well being. ARAs believe that our own behaviour towards animals should be guided by this recognition of their sentience.
Most of us use animal products every day, but how much do we know about the animals' needs and wants, or about their emotional lives?
What is Animal Sentience ' and why does it matter?
Humans share the planet with as many as 4700 species of mammals, 9700 species of birds, 4800 species of amphibians, over 23,000 species of fish and around 6000 species of reptiles (as far as we know up to now), not to mention the countless species of invertebrate animals. We interact with and use animals in a multitude of ways in our daily lives.
But how much do we know about how these animals experience the world ' what they feel, why they behave in the ways they do, how they understand their environment, how and what they communicate?
Many of us at some time must have watched another animal ' a dog, a cat, a horse, a bird, a flock of sheep ' and wondered, 'What is she feeling now?' or 'Why is he behaving like that?' or 'What do they want?'. Questions like these may seem simple, even simple-minded, but in fact they are very complex and important to our understanding of the place of humans in the natural world.
Increase in scientific knowledge
A huge increase in scientific research on animal sentience is beginning to answer some of the questions about animal sentience and animal consciousness, although many unsolved mysteries and questions remain for future study and debate. This will be one of the most exciting areas of biology in the coming decades. And the answers have big implications which are being explored by philosophers and lawyers. How should we treat other animals? What are our responsibilities to them? Do they have rights?
Scientific studies of Animal Sentience
The most basic way of experiencing the world is through feeling or sensation. 'Sentience' is defined as the ability to have perceptions and sensations. A 'sentient animal' is an animal that is aware of his/her surroundings and of what happens to him/her and is capable of feeling pain and pleasure, at the least. The current scientific consensus is that all vertebrate animals, at least, are capable of feeling pain and experiencing distress. (For this reason anti-cruelty laws exist in many countries.)
But many of the animals we interact with turn out to have more complex mental and emotional lives than people have understood in the past, and new scientific research is constantly revealing new evidence of animals' cognitive abilities and their emotions.
Sentient animals have preferences and intentions
It turns out that some animals can both remember and anticipate events and some can foresee their future needs and plan ahead. They can maintain complex social relationships in their groups. Some animals can understand what another animal is going to do, and attempt to deceive that animal in order to gain an advantage. Some animals can enjoy learning a new skill. Some animals react to other animals in ways resembling human empathy. On the negative side, animals can experience the unpleasant emotions of pain, fear, frustration and probably boredom as well. They can be reduced to a state resembling human depression by chronic stress or confinement in a cage.
All these abilities listed above have been documented in scientific research. Of course these abilities vary between different species. And of course we cannot assume that if an animal behaves in ways that look familiar to us, the animal has the same mental experiences as a human would have in similar circumstances. In the current state of knowledge it is impossible to prove beyond doubt what an animal is feeling, or perhaps thinking. But it is equally important not to underestimate animals' feelings and the sophistication of their mental processes, because this may well affect how we behave towards animals.
Importantly, several of the abilities that have in past been thought to be uniquely human ' for example, the use of tools, the ability to plan ahead, the ability to empathise with another or to deceive another, the transmission of skills in ways that can be classified as 'culture', behaviour that can be classified as 'morality' ' are now known to exist to some extent among non-human animals too. From the point of view of evolutionary biology, it makes sense that humans should share many of our emotional and cognitive abilities with some of the other animal species.
Understanding animals
Throughout history people have known that animals do very 'clever' and impressive things ' such as a bird building an intricate nest or a mother animal teaching her young. Folk stories all over the word attribute intelligence and cunning to animals.
But for much of the 20th century scientists believed that all animal behaviour could be explained either as innate behaviour patterns in response to internal or external stimuli or as conditioned learning in response to stimuli.
Emotion or problem-solving on the part of the animal were not considered necessary to explain its behaviour and it was considered impossible to study these aspects at all. What is exciting about the present time is that scientists are once again interested in studying animals' emotions and mental processes and that huge progress in understanding animals is being made.
Implications of Animal Sentience
The facts and theories of animal sentience are still hotly debated among scientists and philosophers. But most people have over history assumed that many animals feel pain, hunger, thirst, heat, cold, fear, anger and other basic emotions, because we have everyday evidence that they do.
Why use a whip or stick on a horse unless it feels unpleasant enough to make the horse move faster? If a dog, horse or cow is limping, most people would naturally assume that the animal is in pain. Most people would also assume that the pain is distressing to the animal and, if they could, they would try to do something to alleviate it.
However, throughout history humans have also treated animals in ways that caused great suffering to the animals, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
Today there is increasing concern about the welfare of animals, whether these are wild animals or those used by people for food, work, companionship, entertainment, sport or scientific research.
http://www.animalliberationfro...Qs/AnimalSentience.htm
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03/06/2010 05:28 PM
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Shenanigans VP
Posts: 3735
Joined: 02/05/2009
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Originally posted by: LexIcon
For the Christian, the Incarnation -the word of God becoming a "human uterine entity"- should be sufficient as an argument as to why "the foetus" should be accorded maximum respect, sentience notwithstanding. That it is not accorded such respect by putative "CHRISTIANS" like Nancy Pelos and her ilk is the scandal of this age.
You get no argument from me on this. Especially in the follow up gospel passages where Mary visited Liz and the "babe jumped for joy in her [Liz's] womb".
Surely, that's a grand passage to point out to the most stupid of pro-abort christians, as they can say "well, Jesus the foetus was different", and "Job the foetus was different", but how can st. John the Baptist be different, he often claimed he was just a human man, and a voice to announce the one coming after, yet there he was, as a foetus, pointing out just how valuable those precious unborn lives are.
But the pro-aborts don't make any sense on the best of days, so we can't expect much from pro-abort "christians".
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God is Love.
The question then becomes in all of life's circumstance, "what is the loving thing to do?"
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03/06/2010 05:30 PM
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Spinwubby Senior Executive
Posts: 1085
Joined: 11/16/2009
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Originally posted by: Augustine
An animals can display loyalty but it can never display, appreciate or return love.
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You have virtually no experience with animals, do you?
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